The disaster that is Fisher Park’s stretch of Santiago Creek
UPDATE: Now YOU can vote to support the completion of the portion of the Santiago Creek bike trail that runs through Santa Ana’s Fisher Park neighborhood. Click here to vote!
Did the Fisher Park NIMBYs who are blocking the completion of the Santiago Creek bike trail ruin their own neighborhood? It is a fair question to ask.
If you visit the Santiago Creek bike train in Santiago Park – or over at the Santiago Park Nature Reserve, you won’t see the horrible graffiti that is sprayed all over the place in the Fisher Park Neighborhood. Sure, you will find isolated tagging, but nothing like the disaster at Fisher Park.
And now, according to my sources, the Fisher Park NIMBYs, led by Rancho Santiago Community College District Trustee Mark McLaughlin and Chapman University Professor Paul Apodaca, want to fence off their part of the creek altogether – as if that will be some sort of panacea! 
It will only make things worse.
Don’t take my word for it – compare the picture above this paragraph to the one atop this post, and then check out the slideshow at this link. That is the mess at the Fisher Park portion of Santiago Creek – a self-inflected nightmare. The cops cannot patrol the area. Bike riders cannot ride through there. All you have is gang bangers and other criminals – and they would not be there if the trail was completed as it is in Santiago Park – and in Hart Park, over in Orange.
Here is what you will see at the Santiago Park portion of the Santiago Creek bike trails (the one on the north is paved while the one on the south side of the creek is just dirt.
Fisher Park
Santiago Park
The Santiago Creek Greenway Alliance has been working for many years to create a greenway along the Santiago Creek. They have a plan that you can read by clicking here. The plan is almost done – except for the small portion of Santiago Creek at Fisher Park, where the NIMBYs seem incapable of doing the right thing.
I agree. The Light (public) will drive out the Darkness along this section of the creek like it has done elsewhere where trails have established.
I am very dissapointed that the City Manager has directed the City Staff to perform a feasability study to fence off this section of the creek on both ends so homeowners such as Mark McLaughlin and Noah Apodaca can make their neighboorhoods private gated communities along the county creek. We should not be spending taxpayer dollars to conduct studies and allocate funding to fence out (exclude) the public so private homeowners drawing salary’s from the public can have exclusive use of the creek.
Instead, an Inclusive approach should be used like rest of the creek which has improved the communities. There are groups of volunteers willing to clean up the creek and instead,some homeowners have had their Lawyers take steps to prevent them.
“We should not be spending taxpayer dollars to conduct studies and allocate funding to fence out (exclude) the public so private homeowners drawing salary’s from the public can have exclusive use of the creek.”…… Hmmmmm
That is what happens when you allow SAPD Chief Walters to be City Manager and Mr. Mill planing commissioner.
Total stupidity and back to jungle development becomes prevalent.
Mill has nothing to do with this. As far as I know, he supports the trail proposal.
My only hope is that Mayor Pulido and City Manager Paul Walters make the right decisions that benefit the majority and not the wealthy influential few living in the Fisher Park neighborhood on the south side of the creek. It is well known that the Mayor and Mark McLaughlin are good friends, but I believe Mayor Pulido will eventually support completion of the Santiago Creek Bike Trail through the Fisher Park neighborhood. In my initial contact with him on the phone, he was very supportive of completing the trail and made the statement that the trail would be beneficial to not only Santa Ana but to other county residents as well. He also acknowledged that his support of the trail would probably lose him some votes, but he said he was willing to endure that loss.
“the Fisher Park portion of Santiago Creek – a self-inflected nightmare.”
What the f**k are you talking about, typical Pedroza stance, you KNOW LESS THAN NOTHING yet make stupid blanket statements.
I’ve lived on Santiago creek for over twenty years and it is anything but a “nightmare”, people walk their dogs, families come through exploring and yes, there are teenagers, but they’re usually just having fun too.
Santiago Creek as it is now, is a teeney tiny bit of wilderness in the city and these bikers want to cut down all the trees and pave it over so they can speed from Villa Park to the beach, meanwhile poor little Jack Fischer Park will become a thoroughfare for speeding bikers and Santiago creek will be ruined forever.
Now go ahead and censor me.
anonster, you are kidding, right?
Cook,
Yes, anonster’s response was quite rude.
I don’t think she understood what I wrote.
I understood you perfectly Art, you’re trying to portray the Fisher Park portion of the creek bed as a “nightmare” of crime and graffiti and if it was just opened up to the public there wouldn’t be any problems there. That’s a great argument except for the fact that it is TOTALLY FALSE.
EVERYDAY all over Santa Ana there is crime and graffiti happening, the ONLY difference is that the city which does NO MAINTENANCE in the creek bed, NEVER goes down and removes the graffiti, all of Santa Ana would look like that wall if they didn’t paint over or remove the graffiti everyday. In other words, there is no more crime and graffiti happening in that creek bed than anywhere else in Santa Ana.
And as for trash in the creek bed, everytime it rains, trash comes rushing down on top of the water and when the creek dries up the trash that was on top is left, 95% of the trash comes from upstream, that will NEVER change nor will it suddenly be cleaned up if only we allow bikers from Villa Park and Orange to speed through.
Why then is there so much graffiti in the Fisher Park creek area as compared to the Santiago Park area?
Because they probably remove it. Why is there so much “cruising” at Santiago Park and very little at Jack Fisher?
And I apologize for being rude.
We love the existing single track trail that is in place now. We will continue to use it, whether it develops into a paved trail or even if it is gated off. We will access this public space and use it!
I wouldn’t advise anyone to ride a bike through the Fisher Park dirt path. It is rocky and dangerous!
That is because it’s a footpath, I repeat, a FOOTPATH, NOT a bike trail!
Commuter, I wonder how much you’ll love the footpath when they’ve removed all the trees and paved it over?
Funny how you were so against Tom Gordon’s anti-graffiti efforts but complain about eyesores like this.
Well, how did Gordon’s anti-graffiti ordinance work out? You know, the one that is unenforceable?
The issue here is that the Fisher Park NIMBYs won’t allow the trail to be completed and they won’t allow clean up crews to clean up the mess. Those crews cannot get in there safely anyway with that rocky dirt trail.
The disaster in Fisher Park is entirely self-inflicted by these addled NIMBYs.
You mean the city has mismanaged the budget so they can’t replace street lights, clean up graffiti or fight gang violence. Gordon’s ordinance is only unenforcable because the city chooses not to.
Gordon should understand why out city is broke. We owe 25 million a year in pension obligations. One day Gordon will retire from LA Unified and he too will be a burden on the taxpayers.
So are you eating Turkey tomorrow or are you eating peanut butter since you are vegetarian?
I’m cooking a turkey, but I won’t be eating it.
“The issue here is that the Fisher Park NIMBYs won’t allow the trail to be completed and they won’t allow clean up crews to clean up the mess.”
What AGAIN are you talking about?
Please provide some VERIFIABLE FACTS that the “Fisher Park NIMBY’S” won’t “allow” clean up crews.
Santiago Creek is overseen by MANY DIFFERENT AGENCIES the County, the City, Fish and Game, Flood Control and probably the Army Corp of Engineers (who according to Jeff Dickman, are still planning to come in and IMPROVE the creek bed in 5 or so years, thus WASTING all of the bike trails money).
The REAL TRUTH is that the city doesn’t want to spend a nickel cleaning up the creek bed, just look at Jack Fisher Park, they NEVER trim the trees because they want it to look like a “forest”, yet when trees fall down or die they are NEVER REPLACED and when they fall down in the creek they just leave them to rot.
And as for the Fisher Park NIMBY’S not “allowing” a bike trail, the idiots behind the bike trail have presented a bunch of fantastical caca, they have no idea who owns what, where the trail would go, how much of the creek bed itself would have to be disrupted and built up, what that means to the path of the creek itself (i.e. flooding) and the financial ramifications of either buying private property or taking it by eminent domain and plus indemnifying the private property owners from lawsuits and NOWHERE do they show how their proposed bike trail would cut through Jack Fisher Park. In short they are presenting pie-in-the-sky and whining that the creek bed is privately owned and being blocked by a few bad guys.
Furthermore if you had been living on a tree lined creek with just a few dozen hikers coming through everyday, how would you feel to be presented with a plan that is going to take your land, cut down all the trees, pave over the path and allow hundreds of bikers per day to stream through your backyard?
It’s ALWAYS easier to inflict the pain on some one else, yeah, easy for you to say; “build the bike path”, YOU DON’T LIVE ON SANTIAGO CREEK!
You still don’t get it. That trail is a mess because that is how the NIMBYs want it.
The bike trail that goes by most of Jack fisher park is already built on Memory lane. From Bristol to Flower.
The missing piece is between Flower and Broadway . A very small piece of 4 to 5 blocks. The 6 to 7 properties, 2 or more owners that have blocked the right of way, live in the Floral Park area. Not a single property owner in Jack Fisher park is involved with this creek bed land that A P is talking about.
cook,
I looked at the neighborhood map. The stretch in question is clearly in the Fisher Park Neighborhood.
Here is the map I mentioned:
Note that the area marked “23” is the Fisher Park Neighborhood. Area “2” is Floral Park.
Thanks for thinking of me but I am already on holiday. Have a great Thanksgiving. Perhaps you can use your time off to ponder how you might best serve your community, instead of wasting your time writing angry blog comments.
I used to live just North of Jack Fisher Park & the Creek. Wow.. Seeing the Photos of now it seems like another Slum in SA. People used enjoy the Fisher Park and the creek everyday. Looks scary now.. So the Police Chief/ City Manager & the Mayor are stumped on what to do? Cut back on those city Fesitas and put those monies back into those nice neighborhoods.. If not.. It’s the last of SA as a Family type City..
The answer my friend is simple. Pave the bike trail. Clear the overgrown brush and rocks. This will allow families and bicyclists to enjoy the path and that will keep the bad types out. That will also allow cops to patrol the area and clean-up crews to access the area, safely.
Admin.. Totally in agreement.. Move forward SA..
“You still don’t get it. That trail is a mess because that is how the NIMBYs want it.”
Wow, great answer, it’s true because you BELIEVE it to be true, that’s some ironclad proof.
I know it is so much more fun for you Art, to lie and cast aspersions about these homeowners than it is to figure out the real reason the creek bed isn’t being maintained, namely BUDGET CUTS.
Wrong again. After all these years you still don’t know how things work in this town. The Nimby’s wanted the rocks and the overgrown brush, thinking that would keep people out. It didn’t. So they kept volunteer clean up crews out, so they could argue that now they need to fence the area off. It is so obvious.
No Art, the rock was brought in because when the freeway was being widened they graded away the property of the homeowner on NW side and the rock was how they “restored” his land.
Again, what EVIDENCE do you have that these Nimby’s some how conspired to keep clean up crews out of the creek bed? I’ve NEVER heard ANY such talk and I live on the creek.
What IS obvious, is that you are making stuff up to suit your little conspiracy theories.
LOL! And it’s just a coincidence that the rocks are right at the start of the trail, just past the 5 Freeway underpass …
Admin,
I have seen an uptick in anon comments here.
Over at the Liberal OC blog, they frown and ridicule that. Anominity is reserved for sending unwanted packages and threating letters.
Get with it man.
LOL!
You may find it funny, but it’s the TRUTH (something you’re not too familiar with). In fact I learned about it from one the walks the bike trail advocates hosted, the son of the man who owned that particular piece of land told us about it.
You were fed a load of B.S.
No Art, what you dish out here is B.S.
The Usual Suspects got away with these shenanigans for years. Well, they no longer have four votes on the Council. The bike trail is going to happen, whether you like it it not.
You guys are crazy. It is only rocky for 20 feet. Carry your bike and ride an awesome single track!
Get on a bike and experience life!
Art, the property owners live in Floral Park, on Riverside dr. and their property line cross the creek to the other side. I don’t think any property owners on the Fisher Park side property lines reach the creek in that area.
Here is a link to the city zoning map, you can increase the size of this huge map to get a good idea how the 7 properties on Riverside Ln crossover the creek, I am not sure if any of the properties on Park Ln in this area of Fisher park reach the creek.
http://www.ci.santa-ana.ca.us/pba/documents/general_plan_map.pdf
Of the over hundred properties that boarder the creek from Broadway to the Santa Ana river, all see the creek as a public flood control channel / creek owned and maintained by the government, except for all or some of the seven properties between Broadway and Flower.
Anonster, You must not be one of the 7.
Quote “Santiago Creek is overseen by MANY DIFFERENT AGENCIES the County, the City, Fish and Game, Flood Control and probably the Army Corp of Engineers”
These are the words of someone who sees the creek as a public easement and not as personal private property.
What would people think if I blocked off N Broadway? Holding a piece of paper that say my property line goes to the middle of the street, screw the easement, get off my lawn.
Ahh, so now all the “usual suspects” live on the creek bed, where for years they’ve been plotting and planning ways to foil the bike path, even going so far as convince the contractors who were working on the I-5 to bring in rocks to keep out the unwashed hordes.
You’re absurd.
Silly anonster. You just don’t get it. These people no longer lord over our city.
cook,
Do you see ANY impediments to city/county trucks or to the public in the creek bed?
I was in the creek bed last weekend and I didn’t see a single fence or sign, nothing has changed.
If the agencies that maintain the creek wanted to clean it up they could, nothing is stopping them, except most likely, BUDGETARY restraints.
Again, you are in the dark. Nasty letters have been sent by lawyers retained by the NIMBYs to groups that do clean-ups, warning them off. This is exactly the situation the NIMBYs want, to build a case for fencing off the creek. The City Council isn’t going to fall for this B.S.!
Anonster,
The impediments are legal arguments put forth by the 7 property owners on Riverside Dr that start at the end of the park (Fisher Park) to go to the 5 freeway.
These property owners who’s homes are on the south side of the creek maintain that the north side of the creek is also their property, and that the creek itself is part of their backyards.
If you are not one of those 7, you can not understand their reasoning.
What is funny is the college professor holding his deed in his hand as proof of his ownership. If he would read further on his property deed in the CC&R’s he would see that there is a restrictions on who can own property there, and since he is not white, his deed says he can’t own the property at all.
So just because something is in writing, doesn’t always make it legal and binding.
Art P, look it up in your deed, it should have the same restrictions for the Park Santiago area.
“and since he is not white, his deed says he can’t own the property at all.”……. Hmmmmm
I think we should start enforcing these deeds. That would make Art changing his heritage quickly.
No one can change their heritage. It is what it is.
“No one can change their heritage. It is what it is”….. Hmmmmm
Since I know you Art, about from 2002 you have claim to be every race White, Indian, Black, Jew and Alien.
However, you have never upheld you rainbow heritage by simply say I am an American.
I am not one to repeat the obvious. And you should be the last one to take umbrage at a mixed heritage. As a bohemian you know full well what that is about amigo. How many times was Czechoslovakia/Bohemia overrun throughout history?
“How many times was Czechoslovakia/Bohemia overrun throughout history?”….. Hmmmm
Many times Art and FYI Fiala is Italian name and I may be a Jew too since it was family’s unfounded claim.
However, until you have started calling me Stanislav I was simply claiming myself an American.
And that is what I am proud and opinionated American.
The Bohemian, Stanislav, Czech, White Eropean, are simply pseudonyms used in my sarcasm.
In your case however, you are passionately everything else but American who wouldn’t protect its constitution and laws.
You hate America because it occupies your Aztlan.
There is much to appreciate about this country but it did kill a lot of Native Americans and the last war we could be proud to have been involved in was WWII.
Agree but we were not there so we have not right to judge these who were!
Until a time travel will be possible we can only learn from the history we can’t relive it or undo it so why dramatize it?
Look how miserable life Jews have by dramatizing holocaust where other nations do not dramatizing theirs.
You do not hear Slavs mentioning 10,000,000 of their people being killed in the Hitlers concentration camps. You probably do not even know that it happen. And on the top of it 20,000,000 Russians killed by communist and Stalin. And 60,000,000 chines by Mao.
You do not hear that you are anti-Slav, anti-Russian, anti-Indian, anti-Chines only anti-Semitic.
So think about that.
I commute this trail daily. Please make it a path so that I do not have to risk my life riding in the street daily. This path would help many commuters stay alive and off the busy streets.
Exactly what we are arguing for! The Santa Ana City Council should do what is right for our community – and reject the Fisher Park NIMBYs!
Someones bike ride from Tustin Ave, Orange to Santa Ana Main Place Mall, on the bike trail. ten minutes.
I could not see the problems the detractors of a bike trail were talking about.
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIfetDh0Q_U&w=420&h=315%5D
Cook,
The trail ENDS after the MainPlace Mall, just past the 5 underpass. The video shows a southbound trip on the trail – and does not include the Fisher Park stretch.
I have been on this trail many times. Why don’t you believe me or at least believe the pictures I have posted?
Other than this site and the Voice Of OC(ea), nobody is really talking abount this.
After I returned home from my trip(s)and talked to some neighbors, nobody is really even aware of what the plan is.
If the proponents had a BRAIN, [perhaps they would continually canvas the neighborhood. JFP is treasured by the young families and the BD PARTY at the cabin is a ritual in the surronding neighborhoods. (The Lawn Bowling center is WAY more cool for 15+ parties).
At Jack Fisher park exists a sliver of culture, where even the HARDENED GANG CULTURE, would vacate and appreciate families. A place, where for just a moment the bullshit of politics were left aside and the kids played. It was the place where the SA SWAT team, with it’s helicopter bared down on journalist Nick Gerda’s classmates, re-inacting a WWII scene.
In other words, someone in the neighborhood should broker a deal. Save the cabin, build the trail, respect the OWNERS and move on.
The drivers against the trail are Apodaca and McLaughlin. There are a lot of folks in support of this.
I don’t think the city should only take into account what the immediate residents want. This trail affects our entire community.
We have BD cabin at Santiago Park too.
When I have visited Fisher Park recently I have observed seedy characters along the way and at the park.
I do agree that all sides should sit together and get this done. It is time to clean up the mess at the creek at Fisher Park.
I do believe you.
the U-tube link shows that a bike trail IS NOT a problem as those who are against the extension from The 5 freeway to Flower think.
http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt0g50094h/
Here is a link to pictures of Santiago Creek in 1969, it is easy to see that the property owners property was washed away. Some of the pictures show the creek up to the house foundations.
I bet a search of the archives in the old court house or library history room will find the easement for flood control for the entire creek.
Also the reason for additional work need to expand the volume of Santiago creek From the 5 freeway to the Santa Ana river, can easily be seen in the picture at Hart Park, with the water flow at the very top of the parking area at Tustin Ave. That water volume is more than 3 times the current channel volume capacity between the 5 and the river.
The FEMA map shows that all the properties from the SA freeway to the Santa Ana river on both sides of Santiago creek will be wiped out in a flood like the one in 1969 or 1938.
http://www.ocflood.com/LocalFloodHazard.aspx
Orange County Flood Local Flood Hazard
In the central portion of the County areas adjacent to Santiago Creek and Collins Channel may be inundated.
I think a bike trail on top of an improved flood control channel is a small price to pay for those property owners to protect their homes. But if not, after the next big flood those home will not exist anymore and a much larger park can be place there.
Great research Cook! And Solorio just got a hold of fifty million in flood control funding …
“And Solorio just got a hold of fifty million in flood control funding”…. Hmmmmm
It is already spent on union pensions and other leftist crapola.
cook,
Land ownership discrimination based on race, religion etc. is illegal, those old CC&R’s are irrelevant.
The property lines are not, if their deeds say they own that land and their property taxes reflect that, then they OWN the land.
I remember when the Army Corp of Engineers were showing their plan for the creek bed, it never happened because of funding, but Jeff Dickman claims it will happen in the next 5 years or so.
The plan that the Army Corp had, would OBLITERATE this proposed bike trail, but would include one of its own. Why spend the money now, when this will happen eventually (and will be done much better) anyway?
So why are the NIMBYs trying to fence off the trail altogether?
“Land ownership discrimination based on race, religion etc. is illegal, those old CC&R’s are irrelevant”……
Hmmmmm
Illegal?….. you are hater Onanster!
Nothing is illegal in Santa Ana!…. ask Art he is expert on illegality in Santa Ana.
It is not even in his vocabulary.
So yes we should remove these 1/2 humans from the property because they are not only NIMBYs but MONKEYs too.
anonster says:
“the plan that the Army Corp had, would OBLITERATE this proposed bike trail, but would include one of its own. Why spend the money now, when this will happen eventually (and will be done much better) anyway?”
……..So you are not against the completion of the bike trail. Good to hear.
‘Land ownership discrimination based on race, religion etc. is illegal, those old CC&R’s are irrelevant.’
(a law was requited to be passed to over ride those parts of the CC&R’s, and you will find it as a line item in your title insurance policy)
‘The property lines are not, if their deeds say they own that land and their property taxes reflect that, then they OWN the land.”
(Prop 13 changed how property taxes are computed, it is on the price you pay for the property and no longer on the amount of land purchased)
But if you have your title policy handy, maybe you can look to see what it says about the flood control easement for the creek. It may even have book & page reference, as that would make finding tHE doc at the recorders office easy as pie.
No, I am not against the bike trail in theory, in fact if they wanted to put it right down the middle of the creek bed, I’d support it. I am AGAINST this plan as it would REQUIRE the CUTTING DOWN of almost ALL THE TREES.
At least the Army Corp’s plan was comprehensive and there would be flood protection.
This plan could potentially alter the path of the creek and leave homeowners vulnerable and without protection from the entity building it. Just look at the area directly outside of Jack Fisher Park, that area would need to be massively built up and every time you move something in that creek bed it ALTERS the flow of water. Walls have failed in that creek bed and they aren’t getting any younger.
This bike plan has NOT been well thought out, this part of the creek is VERY NARROW, very UNLIKE the part above Main St.
“(Prop 13 changed how property taxes are computed, it is on the price you pay for the property and no longer on the amount of land purchased)”
Think about that cook, when you purchase property you pay for what you get, if you pay x for an acre of land, you would probably PAY LESS for 3/4 ‘s of an acre. You just CAN’T TAKE PEOPLE’S LAND, this would HAVE to be done through eminent domain.
Not true. Just widen the dirt path and get rid of the rocks. The brush does need some trimming.
No Art, I’ve talked to these people, they want NOTHING LESS than a 10′ wide asphalt path, that’s what the OC Bike trail people REQUIRE.
Art, you can’t get rid of the rocks, they were put there for a reason and it has nothing to do with keeping out the public. look up riff-raff. (look for the rocks placed in river beds)
Anonster, you should look at the 1969 pictures of the creek. You can see that a lot has been done to the creek after the flood. So to maintain that nothing can be done would leave the creek bed at your back door.
Maybe there is not enough land to improve the flood control and have a bike lane and parkway. The next best thing to do would be to take out all the houses on one side or the other to make the room.
Cook,
First off, let me congratulate you on being a first rate angry, bitter, old coot. Way to stay relevant.
I guess you old coots are reading comprehension impaired, I NEVER said that I was against improving the creek for flood control, in fact I liked the Army Corps plan, it was comprehensive, attractive and included a bike path.
You’re the one who had to apologize for being rude. Cook has done excellent research on this subject.
Anonster, peace. You did say you favor the plan by the engineers that includes a bike lane.
So if I stepped over the line, except my apology.
“The next best thing to do would be to take out all the houses on one side or the other to make the room.”
Yeah, that comment elevates the discussion.
Your skewed/biased/illogical “judgements”, never fail to amaze and amuse.
“The next best thing to do would be to take out all the houses on one side or the other to make the room.”
Yeah, that comment elevates the discussion.
Your skewed/biased/illogical “judgements”, never fail to amaze and amuse.
…….. I know, not a cool thing to say to someone who home is there. …….
I was thnking about the Bristol street widing project that displaced hundreds of homes, (for a Centerline that will never be built at least not in my life time).
Turn the existing single track trail into a path. Its simple. We already use it on bicycles…I would like to be able to safley use it and not have to worry about being robbed.
All the teenagers who live in Fisher Park are against this trail. They all use it to smoke weed. Anyone who has been on the trail knows the exact 3 spots that I am talking about.
RESEARCH NOTICE:
The pro bike trail advocates falsely claim that the bike trail will reduce crime along the Santiago Creek. No research evidence was presented to make such a claim. “The existence of the trail has had little, if any, effect on crime and vandalism experienced by adjacent property owners (Zarker, G., Bourey, J., Puncochar, B., and Lagerway, P. Evaluation of the Burke-Gilman Trail’s Effect on Property Values and Crime. Seattle Engineering Department. May, 1987, p. 3). No studies have found any decrease in crime by building a bike trail. In fact, a bike trail will increase pedestrian traffic since pedestrians outnumber bicyclists on pathways 75% to 20% (Ragland, David R., Safe Transportation Research & Education Center (SafeTrec), Jones, Michael G., Alta Planning. Prepared for Caltrans, February 2010).
What we do know is that the current situation is a disaster. Just look at the pictures.