Former Santa Ana Councilman Ted Moreno is defending the Fisher Park residents’ right to a messy creek
Former Santa Ana Councilman Ted Moreno has returned at long last from a self-imposed exile from local community affairs and politics. Moreno was drawn back into the fray by an article posted on this blog on Dec. 18, regarding the efforts by a handful of Santa Ana’s wealthier residents, in the Fisher Park neighborhood, to stop the Santiago Creek bike trail from being completed.
Moreno, was convicted of extortion and money-laundering in an alleged scheme to take control of the Santa Ana City Council and sentenced in February of 2001 to almost five years in prison, according to the L.A. Times. Many residents then and now felt that Moreno was entrapped and my old friend Lou Lopez, who was the first Latino elected to the Anaheim City Council, told me that the same FBI informant who entrapped Moreno, also tried to ensnare him. But Lopez, a retired police officer, ran the other way, while Moreno got caught.
Moreno also took a lot of heat back then for apparently believing that gays and lesbians would be attracted to Santa Ana’s newly established arts district and thereby bring about the moral decline of the city, and that he “was just hoping to make Santa Ana a better place to live,” he is quoted as telling U.S. District Judge Gary Taylor (Source: AJC).
Moreno was also accused of by former Santa Ana Councilman Brett Franklin, of shoving him during a break in a Council meeting, back in March of 1998. He did not however face charges in that incident, according to the L.A. Times.
While Moreno was far from perfect, I admired him for standing up to Santa Ana City Manager Dave Ream – and for fighting for working families. I can’t support his beliefs about the gay community, but in a way he was prophetic as the gay element in Santa Ana has very quickly accrued considerable power in Downtown Santa Ana. We recently caught the new gay bar, the Velvet Lounge, apparently engaging in adult entertainment, which is not allowed by their C.U.P. (conditional use permit).
Here are Moreno’s comments regarding the proposed completion of the Santiago Creek bike trail:
Allow me to introduce myself. I am a former two term councilmember for the City of Santa Ana from 1992 – 2000. I feel confidant that I have a quite a bit of knowledge of how the Santa Ana government functions and its history. By the why, just in case you or your organization feels that I am an elitist too, you are far from the truth. I was blessed three years ago to buy a home on River Lane for me and my family of six. My address is 943 W. River Lane, just in case you feel that I am not providing full transparency of who I am and were I live.
Six months ago is when I became aware of an out town group wanting to turn the Santiago Creek, which is about 150 feet from my property, into a bike trail. My first thought was, “Not a smart idea”. Most of my first gut reactions tend to be correct decisions. The City of Santa Ana does not have the necessary funds or manpower to patrol or beautify the current Santiago Creek bed, which explains all of the over grown plants, graffiti, coyotes and homeless.
While City of Santa Ana staff has become experts in exploding the city’s population demographic needs, when it comes to securing millions in Federal, State, and County funds in order to set into motion gigantic pet projects like the Santiago Creek Bike Trail. It still does not address the issue, that the city still does not have the resources to maintain a safe and clean bike trail. One just has to go along the current Santa Ana River bike trail, in those areas which are located within the city’s bounders, as proof that the city does not have the resources to provide safe and clean bike trail. While it is might be true that a lot of the responsibility of maintaining the Santa Ana River Bed bike trail, might be the County of Orange. The City of Santa Ana can not ignore that they are equally responsible for the safety of the average person who uses Santa Ana River Bed bike trail, within its city boundaries.
I just know for a fact that the affliction that effect the current Santa Ana River Bed bike trail, the homeless and graffiti from both gangs and tagging groups, will flourish beyond control along the Santiago Creek, if the proposed bike trail is completed. Please do not tell me that the homeless are not a concern. While it is true most of the homeless along the Santa Ana River Bed are harmless individuals, some of them are not. I know this for a fact, because before we bought our on River Lane, my family and I rented a home for 33 months on Alona St, which backed up into the 16th tee of the Riverview Golf Course. We could hear physical fights between the homeless at night, yelling at the top of their lung as if they were demon possessed, and three times the fire department responded to out of control fire in the river bed, which were started by the homeless.
I last last issue, please do be a big favor, do not call my neighbors like Ronald Salem an elitist, just because they might have a photo on their Facebook page have a great time with his family on a boat. The bottom line is that many of us in the neighborhood are concerned about our families and properties if this bike trail is constructed. This explains why Fisher Park Neighborhood Association, which had been inactive for about seven years, had standing room only at the Fisher Park Cabin about three months ago. There were over fifty residences from our association that were only concerned about this issue and none of them where in favor of the bike trail. Thank you for waking a sleeping giant.
Sincerely,
Ted Moreno
Will Moreno’s entry into this debate help the anti-bike trail contingency? That is hard to say, but I can’t imagine he will be able to sway anyone on our City Council. Stay tuned…
Hi Ted and any other concerned neighboors in Floral Park, Jack Fisher Park, or West Floral Park. There is no current plans or proposal to place a bike trail down the creek in West Floral Park to the SART. Reason is there is an awesome Class 2 Trail now down Memory Lane thanks to Morrison Park Neighborhood Association asking for it for over 3 years.
It took the Santiago Park Association approx 10 years to get their creek trail done which greatly improved their neighborhood though there were a very few who were opposed to it.
The City of Orange is completing their last segment of the 8 mile creek trail which is beautiful (come enjoy it). The County helped to do this.
I encourage you all to explore this great trail starting at Santiago Park by the Main Place Mall / Discovery Science Center and travel by the 9 parks along this creek up to Santiago Oaks Regional Park. You will encounter many friendly, law abiding individuals and families taking walks, pushing strollers, riding bikes, and even in electric wheelchairs.
I was saddened when at your recent Jack Fisher Park Neighboorhood Association Meeting that some of you publicly and emphatically stated to a Reporter that “if a trail was constructed that it would spread crime and disease in your neighborhood” and this was published as a quote in the newsletter. Many of us who live along this creek and adjoining blocks are good people with no intentions to commit crime or infect you.
I have lived along this creek for 20 years and I volunteered as a Reserve Park Ranger of the County of Orange for 10 years and have been in Scouts for 9 years and active in my Church and community like many others. Thus, I enjoy being part of the Light. Lets do what is right for the greater good.
Merry Christmas to you all. Love, Joy, & Peace.
I find it funny that anyone who has lived on this creek would be for this plan as it stands, STOP trying to FOOL people!
This plan will require that almost ALL OF THE TREES would need to be CUT DOWN and the path PAVED OVER, folks WON’T be walking through nature, it will look much more like the stretch near Tustin Blvd., BARREN with chain link fences right up against peoples backyards.
This bike path will DESTROY the last little tiny bit of nature left in Santa Ana.
Merry Christmas trees, racoons, birds … here come the chain saws!!!
“This plan will require that almost ALL OF THE TREES would need to be CUT DOWN and the path PAVED OVER, folks WON’T be walking through nature, it will look much more like the stretch near Tustin Blvd., BARREN with chain link fences right up against peoples backyards”….. Hmmmm
Onanster,
Actually the plan is that to preserve the above mentioned bolshevistic damage, the bikers would get off their bikes and would continue on the foot carrying their bikes on their backs.
It would be called Santa Ana Try-Athlon Bike Challenge (TM).
The winner would get one of these secret white boxes from the Mayor Pulido which he distributes during the Council Recognition Session.
The trail is already used. It has been for many year. It was used many years before any of those houses were there. The trail will go through thanks to public easment laws.
I bet Ted Moreno thinks that bicycles should be ridden on sidewalks also(just not around his neighborhood)
“Most of my first gut reactions tend to be correct decisions. ”
HAHAHA says the criminal who intentionally wronged the citizens on Santa Ana.
Where is a copy of this plan that “anonster” is referring to?
There has been a call to complete the trail for years and years, but I have not seen any plan on paper saying how to place a trail in the creek at Fisher Park area and if any of the trees would need to be removed.
The people who spoke at the last council meeting referred to a plan also.
Even the Mayor Pro Tem asked the city management to investigate this issue cause she has not seen any plan, and knows of no plan in the works.
Commuter doesn’t know what he’s talking about;
“The trail is already used. It has been for many year. It was used many years before any of those houses were there.”
Those houses are anywhere from 60 to 100 years old, before they were built there was open land and no need for a foot path in the creek.
Furthermore he’s mistaken about “public easment laws”, if one has an easement for access, say a road, that is ALL one has, that easement does NOT give you the right to build a super-highway. A dirt foot path prescriptive easement does not give anyone the right to cut down trees and put in a 10ft wide paved bike trail.
Hi Anonster,
OC has well over 80 miles of bike paths along creeks that 1,000’s of citizens enjoy. In some neighboorhoods such as Irvine, it has been easy to do this and they are considered one of the most bike friendly cities in the USA with an approx total of 40 miles of Class 1 and Class 2 bike paths (not just for bikes, but for people to walk and run on).
In other cities, such as along the Santiago Creek, it has taken over 40 years to create a 9 mile path due to pockets of resistance. If the homeowners along this remaining 0.25 mile stretch really want to save the trees, then they could provide an easement to the City to use the existing dirt trail and improve it. This would save many of the trees. However, it appears some want to keep this all to themselves.
Mark- How would allowing the remaining trail be built save the trees? I am confused…if they have to cut down trees to improve the trail, how are the trees saved?
Mark Lindsey,
It is my understanding that the bike trail HAS to be built to certain specifications
(for funding), 15ft of clearance (or nearly so) and a 10ft wide paved path. In order to acheive this ALMOST ALL THE TREES WILL HAVE TO BE CUT DOWN on the north side of the creek bed and the whole thing will need to be graded. I wonder if you’re being honest about this or if you’re just trying to hide the ugly facts to get people on your side?
As far as “resistance” to the bike trail preventing it from being built, that is another lie, I’ve lived on this creek for over twenty years and this is the first I’ve heard about it, in fact NOBODY from your group ever came by to talk about the plan (I heard about your info. meeting from a neighbor), it seems like you guys want to talk to everybody but the people who will be most affected by this plan.
Commuter, Clearly you know little about the neighborhood in question (Jack Fisher Park), when you talk about riding bikes on the sidewalks.
We have no sidewalks in the neighborhood!
kenlaysnotdead says: “We have no sidewalks in the neighborhood!”
……….
A portion of Sharon Rd and River Ln does not have a sidewalk. The rest does.
The portion of River Ln without a sidewalk would benefit from an extended trail along the creek, but that area is out, because the bike trail already exists on Memory Ln for that portion.
…………..
anonster says: I’ve lived on this creek for over twenty years and this is the first I’ve heard about it,
…………
People who buy property are required to get “Notice” of all known items that effect the property.
The home buyers along the creek have been told about the flood control channel, the danger and requirement to have flood insurance, and the possibility of a parkway and trails being built along this channel when the ACE rebuilds it.
………..
Hi Folks,
2 of us went door to door along the creek homes in Jack Fisher to discuss this with neighboors last summer. For those that were home, quite a few were supportive on the condition that the creek be cleaned up of all the trash and graffitti. Some were also against it.
We also have been at some of the local Neighborhood Association Mtgs to speak about this.
Back in 1971 the County developed a master plan to place a trail along the Santiago Creek. Which showed a continuous trail. Years later Santa Ana backed out of the plan but Orange did not. Since then groups of community minded citizens have been succesful to have Santa Ana update the plan to include a trail on portions of the creek (i.e. Santiago Park) or parallel to it (i.e. Memory Lane). The Santiago Oaks Greenway Alliance is a group of citizens that has been instrumental in working with the communities, city govt, and county govt to create a greenway along this creek for all OC residents to enjoy. This is the last remaining gap of 0.25 miles.
Mark- Since you seem to be knowledgable and involved in this, a couple of things which hopefully you can specifically address:
1. How is building the paved trail going to save trees as you indicated?
2. Is the building of the paved trail required in order to clean up the creek of the trash and graffitti? You indicate that quite a few of the homeowners were in favor, which I am surprised that all of them were not in favor of a clean creek area. I fail to see why the graffitti and trash cannot be cleaned up without a paved trail…a bucket of paint and trash bags seem to work. If that is one of the goals, then it seems that this can be met without the paved trail.
3. Is there a specific plan available on-line that you can point me to so that I can read it for myself and verify some of these details?
4. Does the plan call for a ft wide paved plan plus 15 ft of clearance as Anonster claims? If not, what does the plan require.
Thanks in advance for your response.
cook,
The Army Corp of Engineers plan is for FLOOD CONTROL and yes, they did include a bike trail in their plan, but that is very different from this group.
I notice Mark Lindsey says they went to Fisher Park homes but what about Floral Park? Aren’t those residents going to be affected too?
Even tho there is not a plan on the books, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see where this part of the trail is going to be placed. The current trail stops under the freeway and the Memory Lane portion is going to be stripped down Flower to Fisher Park.
The communities affected has a chance to shine, on this issue. At the council meeting they said they will come up with a plan.
How would you connect the trail between the freeway and Memory Lane @ Flower?
Anonster, some creek Residents in Floral Park were also canvassed door to door like those in Fisher Park. They also were of mixed positions (negative or positive). We also met with City, County, and State Officials and with Neighborhood Associations. This was type of collaboration was also done with all the other segments of the creek that now has trails.
TjlocalSA,
1. Placing a trail would require removing fallen braches, overgrown bushes, and some trees. This is more about improving the health and safety of the lives of those who live in these neigborhoods and the county. Take a look at the restored sections of the creek and you will see. Not to far different than landscaping your yard if none of your own trees or bushes or grass has been maintained for 40 plus years. A few segments still need to be restored but those are ones that never had any trees (we have a vision to add more native plants in sections).
2. As a goodwill gesture, we initially explored cleaning up the creek by discussing this with the City and some of the Homeowners. We were going to use groups of volunteers such as local Boy Scouts as a community service project (Myself in others are in Scouts). Unfortunately, those against us had their Lawyer contact to Boy Scout Council and informed them that the Scouts and no other groups were welcome in the creek to clean or maintain this. The Scout Council requested we do not perform any projects in this creek since it may upset neighbors even if we had City permission to clean the City owned portion.
Thus, neither the Homeowners are willing to clean this up nor allow volunteer groups (I wonder why) I think that when a trail is placed here, we and the city will be able to get this cleaned up but not before.
3. For the vision and plan, go to http://santiagogreenway.org/html/vision.html
4. A standard Class 1 Trail design is 10ft wide. It does not require an additional 15 ft wide clearance. It also does not need to absolutely be 10ft wide. Throughout the county there are portions of other paved trails that are not 10 ft wide due to constraints. If a trail gets designed and constructed, there would be lots of collaboration to ensure it is environmentally friendly while also being safe. Allowing the status quo to continue (an unofficial dangerous trail in an unmaintained portion of the creek that serves as a link between 5 neighboorhoods in Santa Ana is no longer viable since rest of the creek upstream now has a great trail for 8+ miles).
I hope this helps. Lets pull together and create a better community for everyone to enjoy. We need people to be physically active and to be connected to one another for spiritual/mental well being. A Trail fosters this.
Mark Lindsey again is slanting the truth;
1) “placing a trail” nice euphemism for the need to take chainsaws and bulldozers into the creek bed. I challenge everyone to walk the path and to envision the 10ft wide paved strip with an additional 2.5 ft on either side (for a total of 15ft clearance) and all the grading that will be needed to ensure a safe trail and you will easily see that 90% of all the trees will have to be CUT DOWN. The native plants ML is talking about are little shrubs NOT NATIVE to a creek bed, the big cottonwood trees are.
Furthermore this bike trail will be right up against peoples backyards, there will be no room for “plantings”, think BARREN and CHAIN LINK fence, that will be the “new” look for the creek bed just like it IS already near Tustin Blvd.
2) The city doesn’t have the funds NOW to maintain the creek bed, they NEVER come and take care of the trees that are there. Some years ago the city came and poisoned the Aranda (bamboo) that was in the creek, they then cut it down and piled it up and left it there for MONTHS, I called every week for them to remove it, it only took them 4-5 moths to do so.
As far as clean-up, the homeowners who own into the creek can’t give permission for volunteers to clean up the creek, their LIABILITY would be enormous.
You obviously don’t know how the creek works, when it rains the creek flows and carries all the debris from upstream down with it, when it dries all that debris gets redeposited in the creek. You can clean it up one week and have it full of trash again the next, I know as I often take a trash bag and fill it up. The trash is always ongoing, this is NOT a failure of maintenance but a fact of our modern life.
3)The 10ft wide trail is ALSO supposed to have 2.5 ft of clearance on either side, hence 15 FEET in TOTAL, funny how ML always feigns ignorance and fails to explain fully the details. That’s because the “details” have ugly consequences.
Thank you both (ML and Anonster) for the responses…obviously from 2 different sides of the creek.
1. Path- Seems to me like the creek would have a problem supporting a 10 ft +/- paved path in its current condition without substantial disruption to plantlife. The question I guess has to come down to whether it is worth it for the people to disrupt it. Obviously, sometimes leaving nature unmaintained is the best for nature, but not for people.
2. Clean Up- I think it is great that a group wanted to clean it up although if it is private property, the owners have to buy in also. If it is public property, the city should not have a problem doing it. If funds are a problem, how is it going to be able to put up the path and maintain it which I imagine is million(s) up front and some on going maintenance also.
3. The Plan- ML, unfortunately that link is to the Alliance’s website but not to the actual plan. That would be like someone else putting the other side’s site up for their ideas. I would like to be able to read the actual proposal which presumably would give details to the width and placement of the path, cost, maintenance, goals, private vs public property, etc…It seems that since no one can show it, maybe it does not exists and that is what the process we are in.
4. Enviro Impact- Does an environmental impact study have to be completed? Seems like it should…
TJLocalSA,
There is one more issue these folks aren’t addressing and that is the creek itself. As I’ve said, I live on the creek, I’ve seen how high the water can get, this bike path will need to be put up higher than the existing foot path as the water comes up right next to and sometimes above the foot path.
This is the main difference between the existing bike trail area and this portion of the creek between Main and Flower, this part is very narrow and sloped, the water comes through very fast and it gets quite high. This is a CREEK and FLOOD CHANNEL, it IS DANGEROUS when the water is flowing as there is not much space on the North side and NONE on the south side.
Regardless of who owns the creek bed, I think they will in all practicality be forced to put this trail up as high as possible and because of the 45 degree slope this project will require a lot of grading and tree removal. In fact, that is in all probability the REAL reason this portion has not been done, because it’s not feasible without real disruption for those folks living on Park Lane and their backyards.
Hi Anonster and TJLocalSA,
This is not rocket science. The County has many, many miles of trails on many creeks and rivers. The more recent ones constructed in the last 10 years have been more environmentally friendly. The greatest fear is fear itself.
Lets move forward as a community and be involved in the planning of creating a trail that is a win-win for all parties. To do nothing and keep it in its current state is a loss for the vast majority that live along and near this creek.
It does not make sense to have an exception for a 0.25 mile stretch that results in a 2+ mile detour on busy surface streets with Fwy Offramps that will either keep our communities divided and/or result in pedestrians and bikers being in accidents with motorists.
Happy new year Santiago Creek.
Bumper:
There has to be an end to the trail somewhere. I suppose it could end at Main Place and not be the worse thing in the world. Will the trail continuing to the SA River really bring the community together? To be seen I guess…I am sure it will probably be completed at some point and hopefully it is done in a manner that is conducive to both the user, the home owners, and nature. I will look for the PLAN I guess at some point in the future. I for one am one that would actually probably use it from a community perspective although my life is not going to be negatively impacted without it. If it costs too much, it may be negatively impacted in the future though. I can’t really see mom’s walking the kids and such using it all the way to the SA River though…Memory/Bristol is too hectic. It will bring more people to a nice neighborhood park that the kids enjoy- sometimes less people is goo too depending on who is there. Merry Christmas everyone…
anonster, Thanks for a clear opinion on the reasons for not improving the creek.
(1) “it IS DANGEROUS”
…… so it should be left dangerous for the residents. The FEMA map shows this spot (5 freeway to the Santa Ana River) as flood zone.
(2) “I’ve seen how high the water can get, this bike path will need to be put up higher than the existing foot path”
……. If you get a chance, take a ride on the bike trails of the creek and river. You will find that the trails do dip below the high water mark in many places. And it is posted, “Subject to flooding”
(3) “, I think they will in all practicality be forced to put this trail up as high as possible “ ……. If the trail is at the same height as the part that runs under the freeway and then comes up at Flower, then it would not be visible to the property owners, it would not be near anyone’s back yard, none of the taxpayers trees would need to be cut, and because the part that runs under the freeway would not be unusable during free flowing water, it doesn’t matter that this part wouldn’t be usable too.
……………
Now I noticed another way along CalTrans property. It run along other people back yards so the Fisher Park people can decide for themselves who gets the bike trail.
The trail can head North from beneath the freeway along the strip of land belonging to CalTrans parallel to the freeway and then pop out at the unnamed ally and head West to Flower and hook up with the Memory Lane bike trail already completed.. This alignment would effect about 7 properties, whereas the low alignment would effect zero properties.
Hi TJLocalSA,
We are only petitioning (227 have signed it so far), for a trail between the 5 Fwy and Flower along this creek which is just 0.25 miles. I will connect 5 neighborhoods together in Santa Ana along this creek in addition to Orange and Villa Park.
The cost would be minimal to Santa Ana as the County and State has funds. Recently the OCTA made $12M availabe in Bike Trail grants but Santa Ana did not act and it went to other cities like it has in the past. Residents in Santa Ana are paying taxes and are getting very little back in their neighboorhoods. We will continue to loose while other cities improve because of inaction or lack of agreement or Leadership on our parts and that of our elected officials.
Wishing you all a Merry Christmas. If some of you want to become more involved, send me an email at markhikes@aol.com.
Love, Peace, & Joy,
Mark
cook,
The people behind this plan are NOT interested in putting it down the middle of the creek bed, I know because I asked them about that possibility and it was definately a no go.
The creek can be dangerous when it is running but this plan DOES NOTHING for flood control, in fact grading it could cause homeowners trouble and then who would be responsible? The Army Corp of Engineers plan was/is comprehensive, why not just wait 5 years or so and let them do this right?
You people all assume because the other portions of the creek are viable for a bike path that this quarter mile must be too, but that isn’t the case. This stretch is ALL SLOPE and is VERY NARROW, it requires taking parts of some people’s backyards, cutting down almost all of the trees and grading the entire thing and it would not just get flooded but could get washed away altogether.
Just because a few bike riders WANT it doesn’t neccessarily make it a good idea.
Hi Anonster,
It is not just a few bikers. So far in 3 weeks we have 227 individuals and families that have signed this petition which approximates 600 people of all ages that like to take walks, go running, leasure bike rides and those who like to commute to work via bike.
This section of the trail is not narrow. The section in West Floral is narrow which is why we are not asking for a trail plus there is one on Memory Lane.
If any backyards would be taken away, it would be portions of backyards that some homeowners have extended their yards onto and over the city/public owned portion.
If other homeowners wanted to provide easements over portions of their property which is actually on the other side of their fences and is in terrible unmaintained shape, that would be welcomed as a goodwill gesture to avoid removing some trees from the city public section (would be a win-win). Either way, a safe trail can be constructed.
Orange just opened up their new creek trail from Tustin Ave to Santiago Oaks RP. They did this so families can begin enjoying it over the Christmas Holidays of which I have seen many smiling faces including those living on the creek. There also a few homeowners in Orange who were reluctant though the vast majority is happy and change is never easy but is part of life. This is what families and communities is all about. Come up and enjoy the trail and I hope that will soften your heart.
Merry Christmas,
Mark
Mark Lindsey,
Let’s be HONEST, people can and do ENJOY THE CREEK NOW, as it is. I see families come through every week-end exploring and having fun on nature walks and some people walk their dogs and other people run there everyday. Just because you need a paved and controlled enviroment in order to enjoy the outdoors is no reason to punish the trees, the birds and all the other critters that live in the creek.
Too bad some people can’t open their hearts enough to put their personal need to see every last square inch of Orange County developed that they can’t even leave this LAST TINY BIT OF NATURAL CREEK BED ALONE, talk about selfish.
Hi Anonster,
Lets be HONEST, I have heard creek neighbors behind their fences yelling at people hiking along the unmaintained foot path in the creek to get out of “their” creek.
Actions speak louder than emails. Is this more about keeping the public out of the creek under the guise of keeping a few trees?
I have seen families tripping on the path, kids having to push their bikes through and stumbling while their Dads try to help. I also know of folks who have hit their heads on the branches crossing over the path.
The trail even runs along a section that has an approx. 8 ft drop right at the edge of the bank with erosion on the trail.
It is not effective (safe), or efficent. I applaud you for wanting to keep this creek beautiful but it needs to be also be safe for the public to enjoy.
Their are 4 keys (rank ordered behaviours) in making decisions and performing activities that Leaders in Govt and Businesses use in making decisions based on all of the stakeholders needs
1. Safety
2. Courtesy
3. Show
4. Efficiency
It appears some of the homeowners consider their wants outweigh those of the many. It is similiar to the Pareto Principle (The Significant Few and the Trivial Many).
I believe in making a better tommorrow. I am more than happy to take a walk with you and others on this trail to discuss/explore this.
What route is available around this trail?
Following the law, a cyclist must cross Broadway, proceed up to 19th St to turn into floral park, before then turning back around and heading to Fisher Park. This is a 1.8 mile detour! Pedestrians may be able to cut it shorter, but a resident put large plants blocking the walkway into the neighborhood right at Santa Clara and Broadway.
Hey Mark;
In the spirit of generosity and goodwill that you want the current property owners in the creek to have (by “giving” up their land to the public) why not show a little yourself.
Maybe these homeowners would be a little more willing if YOU were to step up and provide them with multi-million dollar umbrella insurance policies. After all why should the burden, RISK, sacrifice and liabilities fall only on a few. This would probably cost you only a few thousand dollars a year and maybe you could get some of your 227 new “friends” to help you “share” the cost. This seems reasonable to me, you know in the spirit of “community” and all.
I have hiked many great nature trails that did not need to be paved over…if we really want to enjoy nature, how about a middle ground? Maintain a nice dirt trail that can be hiked…if that means that some branches need to be trimmed or the dirt graded a bit, I can’t really imagine that it would be a problem. Work with the homeowners, figure out where ppty lines are at, and make it work. Rec’d today the flyer on the porch with many good arguments against the trail…
above post at 12:15 was TJLocalSA…new computer.
If a public trail is provided either on the currently city owned portion, or if easements are obtained, or a combination, then then is no liability on the homeowners.
At the present, since portions of the current foot path is on portions of privately owned property that no one is maintaining (keeping safe), there is lots of risk.
Once again to maintain the status quo puts those at risk who try to travel along this path and puts those at risk who try to take an approx 2 mile detour on busy streets that have Fwy On Ramps and Off Ramps with narrow sidewalks.
I think rest of the official Trails along this creek are good examples of what can be accomplished for all to enjoy.
Lets collaborate on a win-win. Ask yourself what the Holy Spirit, Jesus, or just the goodwill of mankind would want us all to do as one community.
Merry Christmas to all,
Mark
Mark,
As a TRUE nature lover, I think leaving the trees and the birds and all the other animals that live in the creek bed ALONE is the highest calling, after all mankind has taken 99.999% of the rest of Santa Ana. Maybe, just maybe we can find it in our hearts NOT to TAKE 100% for ourselves.
“If a public trail is provided either on the currently city owned portion, or if easements are obtained, or a combination, then then is no liability on the homeowners.”
Really? Please provide proof of your assertion, it seems to me that the homeowners will be at risk just by having more people wandering in the creek bed, will YOU or the city make sure they stay on the trail? Again, I think you find it easy for OTHERS to sacrifice and have risk, but when it comes to any personal liability, MONEY or loss on the line, not so much. How very Christian of you to dump the burden on others.
What a joyous New Year Mark envisions , replete with CHAINSAWS, BULLDOZERS and HOT SMELLY ASPHALT, make no mistake, if he and his “friends” get their way, our little bit of natural, tree lined, creek bed will be stripped BARE.
All good points of view. I hope the “save the creek” people are getting this info so they can think about a alt route.
I have pointed out 2 difference routes that solve all the objections but one.
(1) along the level set under the freeway and raising out at flower.
(2) Swing up North along the freeway to the unnamed ally and then West to Flower and Memory Lane.
The one objection, is where a few property owners think it is their property. And that one can be dispelled with some research at the County archives.
The creek in question, is not a “LAST TINY BIT OF NATURAL CREEK BED” (anonster) But a man made flood control channel made after the 1969 floods tore out all the trees and back yards and private property the entire length of the creek. Look it up on the internet.
cook,
YOU are mistaken, the flood affected the homes WEST OF FLOWER ST., not above it. The homes in Floral Park are over 80 years old and so are most of their retaining walls.
Hi Anonster,
The highest calling is creating open space for all to enjoy and not keeping city owned property for the exlusive enjoyment of a few. Consider this Creek/Greenway as the Great Park of Central Orange County. For all of us to enjoy it we need to connect our communities together on its 9 miles. This is the last 0.25 portion. Many in the neighboorhoods west of the 5 Fwy would love to travel up this way and vice versa.
Lets realize this vision set forth 40 years ago by the County.
Mark,
What BS, why don’t you just claim that the bike path will bring world peace while you’re at it.
Never mind the UGLY details, like the removal of all trees and how BARREN and sterile the creek bed will be.
You people are like snake oil salesmen, spinning visions of an idyllic wooded path and everyone singing Kumbaya together when the reality will be a denuded paved road set right up against someone’s backyard and all for the sake of some bicyclists who want to speed from Villa Park to the beach and who don’t give a rat’s ass about “community”.
Hi Anonster,
It appears than according to your comments that none of the approx 100 miles of trails we have on creeks and rivers in OC plus similiar in other communities throughout the USA has done nothing to improve the quality of life.
I beg to differ, this is what we need for healthy living. People are too much car centric and couch centric. It alone will not bring world peace but it will improve the connectiveness of our communities and those that live within it.
I rode the new trail in Orange today and in less than 1 hours counted approx 60 people either walking their dogs, hiking, riding bikes, or even in electric wheelchairs and on was on a Segway. Lots of smiling faces and folks saying hi.
Love, Peace, Joy.
Mark
I know the south side, survived almost intact, but the North side paid the price with the lost of the (1932) or (1938) retaining wall and all of the trees and most of the back yards. But at least the taxpayers picked up the tap to restore these private and public properties at no charge to the local home owners.
Of course history lessons are nice, the question is:
Where to place the missing link in the trail plans?
Looking forward to seeing what the Alliance to save the creek, comes up with for this missing link.