Planning Commission to consider the Fourth Street Market’s CUP request on Monday

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• Editor, I don't think it is a fair comparison to suggest that it was "the Latino businesses that were being displaced". The businesses previously there did cater to the lowest income and least assimilated latino immigrants around, but not all of those businesses in that building were even latino owned. The existing business there right now caters to poorer latinos but appears to be owned by an asian lady. I personally would like to see you focus on the issues of economic opportunities and economic privilege seperated by issues of ethnicity or race.

  • Good point.

    • If the building were previously occupied by empowered and assimilated Latino business owners then there would have been more debate about tennant rights and treatment of the displacement and direction of the neighborhood. Instead the transition occured quietly and had it not been for other business owners and property owners concerned about future displacement most would not have known any details. (If there are any details to speak of).

• The City has systematically ignored supporting long-term businesses, particularly those serving low-income communities which happen to be Latino.

  • Yes, and when you say "the city" we have to consider the property owners that fund the councilmembers and direct the "Community Management District" and have the city rig the PBID votes as clearly explained by the Orange County Grand Jury. The list of manipulation with the city by a distinct minority of property owners goes on and on.

    • And will continue if the incumbents are reelected.

• Bob Quinn here, one of the owners of Playground restaurant and the man who will be asking the Planning Commission for the conditional use permits tonight. Before you conclude that the 4th Street Market is a threat, I encourage you to consider a few points:

  1. You say, "This enterprise won’t be attractive to most working families in Santa Ana." We certainly hope this is not true. We have gone to great lengths to make this a great environment for everyone in the community. All of the tenants have developed food concepts that are priced appropriately for Santa Ana's working families. There will be free Wi-Fi. It will be free to congregate and hang out. The rental artisan kitchens are available at a discounted rate for local artisans. There will be many community and educational programs at the Market.

  2. You say, "The key according to experts is to keep the crowds coming." I suppose this is true, but the real key is to make the "people's market" a true community experience. If we create nothing but a food court, it will likely struggle. But if we succeed in creating a valuable community asset - and not just for one section of the community - then we may flourish because an authentic Santa Ana community experience will attract tourists. Tourists will buy my food and they will shop at the local shops. Many community members will have the opportunity to profit from these consumers from outside the community.

  3. Let's be honest, your constituent audience is the local Hispanic community that seeks to maintain the Old Mexico feel of Fourth Street. I understand that and I understand that La Quatro is fading. The reasons for this are complex, but have little to do with greedy white people trying to push out the Mexican. You're just wrong about that. I think Mateo's point is good, let's consider the economic benefit to the local economy, including your constituents.

  - A successful public market spills over the limits of its property and impacts the entire community.

  - It becomes a focal point for social interaction and exchange.

  - It complements the arts, health and wellness.

  - It supports the local artisan community.

  - It encourages small business by providing opportunities for low-capitalized entrepreneurs.

  The 4th Street Market may be the best thing that ever happened to the members of your audience. Let's say a local entrepreneur makes the world's greatest tamales and she wants to start a business to sell them. The Health Department requires that she cook any product she wishes to sell to the public in a certified kitchen. That's kills the dream for most people. Who can afford to build a Health Department certified kitchen? The dream is alive because she will be able to rent a Health Department certified kitchen in the 4th Street Market - at a discount from an already low hourly price. Ah, but where can she sell her tamales? She can sell them at the "Small Goods Shop" in the 4th Street Market where she can rent a bit of shelf space and the staff will do all the rest. Boom, she's in business. And when things start going really well, she can rent one of the mini-restaurant spaces with little or no start-up capital. How is this not the best thing ever for the ambitious local artisans?

  I hope Santa Ana's working families will be frequent visitors to the 4th Street Market. We have tried to create menu items that will be very interesting, if not familiar to them, at a price point that is attractive. We have created an environment where EVERYONE can feel welcome. The Market will be a success if everyone comes and feels at home, even if they buy nothing.

  We will be hiring 45 employees for our businesses in the 4th Street Market, nearly all of whom will be bilingual and from the local community. We offer all of these employees the ability to participate in a 401(k) plan and full-time employees are offered health benefits.

  Before you come to attack the 4th Street Market, ask yourself if it is really in your self-interest to do so. Personally, I think the 4th Street Market is one of the greatest things to happen in Santa Ana in my memory - for ALL residents of Santa Ana, including you, who obviously loves your community a great deal.

  • Bob Quinn you sound as though you have spent a considerable amount of time thinking about how to create a contemporary community space that considers different needs and tastes.
    I personally thank you for that and hope that the market turns out to meet most of that vision.

    • Bob, I am not sure if extending alcohol service past 2:00 is in the best interest of a not quite mature Downtown though.
      Is this what is being fought for by the business partners involved or is their some kind of communication error going on with planning commission meeting proposals?

      • Mateo, I am not interested in being open until 4:00. I didn't say 4:00 a.m., Editor did. I have asked for the right to sell after midnight, in order to have the option of selling alcohol until 2:00, as several nearby restaurants do. The current plan is for the 4th Street Market to close each night at 10:00, but as the neighborhood matures, midnight or 2:00 may become desirable.

        • Thanks for that clarification Bob. I will edit the post to reflect that.

  • A couple of thoughts.

    The playground is the exact opposite of what you state so your track record is not quite up to snuff. I get that your intended audience may have been much different than this place.

    Second, dispacing dozens of prior businesses with a small stall seems to be disengenous statement at best. Why not help the long term businesses that were cut loose to make way for your business.

    Third, what do you mean by local artisans? Nearly all of the new businesses are from South County or Corona. They are much further away.

    • Good point about the Playground. I won't eat there. They are way overpriced and they serve what look like raw, bloody hamburgers. No thanks.

      • You will be happy to know that at Wagyu Chuck, our burger stand in the 4th Street Market, the burgers will be cooked medium well. The burgers will be made using some of the finest beef in the world (i.e., Wagyu, commonly mislabeled as "Kobe beef" in America). The beef will be ground in-house, daily and probably the freshest you've ever had. We'll cook it fresh to order and slap it between a sponge dough bun made that morning at our bakery. It's going to be hard to beat. I hope you'll give it a try.

        • Sounds good!

    • Duke, I wouldn't want to recreate Playground across the street. Playground has its clientele who want a particular experience and we understand that while it is successful, it is not a fit with our Latino neighbors. The 4th Street Market is a very different concept and all of the Market's tenants are all committed to making the Market attractive for everyone in the community.

      You say my track record is not up to snuff, but I think you'll agree that we've been good citizens and if you won't agree that we've helped the neighborhood as an employer, tax payer, and overall kind group of people, I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a way we have harmed the neighborhood.

      Most of the businesses in the Fiesta Marketplace have struggled for years with diminishing sales and most could not pay their very low-priced rent, much less make a fair living. I understand that everyone involved received sufficient notice (a year or so, I believe) to find a new place to set up their stalls to make way for what should be the biggest boon to the downtown in a generation.

      I am not calling the other tenants of the East End "local artisans." For the most part their businesses do better than Playground at catering to local working families, but you're right, some are from outside Santa Ana. Some, however, are locals, such as the family that owns Native Sun and the guys who have poured their life savings into the Yost. But my earlier reference to local artisans is to my hypothetical tamale maker who doesn't need to speak English or even be documented but can start a profitable business for little or no capital. And obviously, it doesn't have to be tamales, it can be anything. For people struggling to get a foothold in the world of food service, the 4th Street Market gives them all the opportunity they may need. The American dream is alive at the 4th Street Market. Don't fight it; bring your energy and your ideas and make your dream come alive.

  • Thanks Bob for your thoughtful response. We wish you luck and hope that you will keep us posted.

• Please Bob spare us your humanist rhetoric. It's all about the money and power! DTSA does need more drinking and drunks. Next you'll be saying that the proposed street car is needed to serve local's transportation needs.

• Mr Quinn, Thanks for taking the time to explain your concept in this blog. Best wishes to you, Dan, Michaele, Michael, Sheila, and Ryan. Great article published in the OCBJ describing your endeavor.

• It is a good thing that there is a new business incubator in Santa Ana, no doubt. It would be much better if there were incubators focused on other parts if the city, not solely the downtown. So, no, this one incubator in the downtown, owned by the Chases, is not the best thing that has happened to Santa Ana. That's a complete stretch. To generate future tenants for said owners..., that's great for the landlords isn't it? It's a win win right? The way to help the Latino community is to have other types of incubators that teach them to own and run other types of businesses, not only selling tamales or tacos, food, for example. Real progress is getting the Latino community to own commercial real estate and wealth. Real progress is not simply generating new Latino downtown tenants perpetually.

  But who knows, maybe selling tamales will get that lady to buy a building in the future, right?

  • A building no. However she might be able to buy a monopoly board and play as if she were hooked up like the Chases, and Harrah are.

    • Carl's Jr. started as a hot-dog cart in downtown LA. What's to stop tamale-lady from buying her own building one day? With talent, motivation and opportunity, it's really not a stretch.

      • Bob,

        You should spend more time around the "PLAYGROUND" Carl Karcher's son Jerome, founded the AIDS clinic nearby. :

        http://mercyhouse.net/about-us/history/

        I worry not about any of this, It is merely an effort for the land owners to manipulate and BLEED dreams of people, with less money that you.
        What happens when you evict one, do you go to two?

        BEWARE DON'T SIGN UP WITH THESE GUYS.

        The mere fact that "Bob Quinn" would raise CK's name should scare anyone. HOLD ON TO YOUR POCKETBOOK'S COOK's.

        SCAM ALERT

        • Hats off to Jerome. Great to see someone doing something like that with his money.

          Let me get this straight, Carpetbagger, you're advising my hypothetical tamale lady not to try to create her little business at the 4th Street Market. And you're saying this because, what, some white guy is going to collect some rent from her? So what is your advice to this woman with talent, passion and a dream? Stay at home and feel sorry for yourself? You think the system is so rigged against you that you shouldn't even try? If that's your approach, the American dream is going to pass you by. You'll probably die cold and miserable and wonder what happened. No, you won't wonder. You'll know with absolute conviction that you got screwed by the white man.

          I'm not the one bleeding dreams -- you are. You are telling a would-be entrepreneur not to take a shot. I'd like to hear you tell tamale lady a more affordable way to launch her business. You can't do it, can you? All you can do is tell her not to take a chance. Be fearful, don't try. That's the worst advice ever.

          My advice to you: Quit hating and feeling sorry for yourself and chase your dream, whatever it is. Find your passion and give it all you've got. Whatever color you may be, it won't hold you back in America. But you've got to quit hating those perhaps born in a better position than you and get off your ass.

          For the record, I make nothing if tamale lady rents a few hours in the incubator kitchen. I make nothing from her sales in the General Market. I make nothing if she takes over one of the mini-restaurants. In fact, I'll probably lose business to her because she'll be competing with my mini-restaurants. But that's okay, if we can make the 4th Street Market a true "people's market," there will be plenty of business to go around. We can all win.

        • In all honesty though the health violations accumulated by DTSA restaurants is horrendous. Those guys shouldn't be teaching anyone about how to operate a restaurant!

  • I don't understand comments like this. I think this business incubator - limited though it might be - is still a remarkable thing for the community. Your comment intimates that it is bad because it doesn't solve every problem. There are few complete solutions and we have to nibble away at problems as best we can. Every little bit helps. And this is more than a little bit. Why criticize something good because it's not enough?

    You also jump to the conclusion that the purpose of the incubator is to create more tenants for the Chases. Nothing stops these incubator businesses from operating food carts, food trucks or a catering business that has nothing to do with the landlord. The ability of a start-up business also to sell its products in the general store - without having to buy a cart, rent a food truck or hire employees to sell it - is a bonus designed to make it even easier to get a business off the ground.

    No, the purpose is not to generate more tenants. That may be the way YOU would look at it, but you don't know the Chases and you're in a poor position to tell anyone what they're thinking. You don't know what motivates them; you're assigning motives that make sense to you without any understanding of them or even the barest knowledge of the facts. It seems to make sense to you that successful people are greedy, power hungry pigs. In this case, you are wrong. I have known the Chases for 12 years and I believe they are some of the most generous, caring and compassionate people I have ever met. The Chases are why we started a business in Santa Ana at a time when Fiesta Marketplace at night was a dark and scary place. I believed in the Chases and their vision to build an inclusive and vibrant downtown. I believed in their fairness and kindness. I knew they were motivated more by what is the right thing to do than to make more money. It will be many, many years before they recover their recent investments. They've been a part of downtown Santa Ana since 1919. I believe their continued involvement and investment and energy in Santa Ana is more about respecting their roots and their community and less about empire building as I think you're saying.

    One thing you clearly don't understand is that we (the Playground family and the Chases) want downtown to be a multicultural mecca that embraces all members of our community. Absolutely anyone is invited to open a business here as long as every member of our community is welcome. We welcome anyone at Playground, but we understand that our food and pricing is not a good fit with the Latino part of our community. We missed the mark with Playground, but we just built the restaurant we dreamed of without regard for who might eat there. We have tried hard to develop concepts for the 4th Street Market and our new bakery that will be attractive (both in terms of menu choices and pricing) to the working families of Santa Ana. I hope you'll give them a try.

    Now it's my turn to try to figure out what's in other people's head. I sense there is a lot of passion for keeping Fourth Street a Spanish speaking, family oriented enclave. I think that ship has sailed. Truthfully, there wasn't enough money in that model for the businesses that line Fourth Street to survive any longer. Target and WalMart captured too much of their business and the Spanish speaking families who came to Fourth Street didn't need or want to spend as much money here any more. (When's the last time you spent money at one of the shops on Fourth Street?) That doesn't mean we should build a new downtown where Spanish speaking families are not welcome, however. To the contrary, a successful downtown must bring them back. The time has arrived when we must try to build a more pluralistic community designed for everyone. Forget the dream to go back to Fiesta Marketplace. Help me make the downtown a safe and inviting place for everyone.

    • Bob Quinn, I think you might have been directing your comments toward Omar and what he was saying about the Chases wanting to consolidate more control. Let's just say this is half true and it it can be viewed without prejudice as the nature of the game.
      Let's not turn this into an argument against those that hate the successful though. This is what I would ask the Chase family though. Did they get sweet deals where others didn't when: )
      Dave Ream and the City sold them the Yost
      Cynthia Nelson of the city gave them free facade improvement grants along with the West End Theater owner and The Pacific Building Owners. A Fourth Street "Mayor's Trolley" a.k.a. streetcar with a little help from the Chase Fainberg family friend Henry Samueli donating $25,000 to the Mayor's legal defense fund, by putting 4 out of 7 council members on regularly scheduled campaign donations every 6 months. This is how governance and favoritism is purchased in Santa Ana and it is their actions as well as the ignorance of the masses of nieve "latinos" that allows it to happen. So god bless their mastery of the corrupted political process.

    • It’s not often an business who seeks to alter our city landscape and rid us of its past (and the Spanish speaking folks who hsupport downtown) shows his face and, yes, even ignorance. For that, I thank you. I think everyone ought to see and think about Mr. Quinn’s paternalistic comments.

      It appears Mr. Quinn’s attempt to recharacterize the Chases actions and cast them as noble ignores the fact that the Chases summarily dismissed dozens of small Santa Ana owned businesses in place of a hipster utopia that only further decreased the small business owners’ market share. Yes, Mr. Quinn, by eradicating downtown of businesses that serve the Spanish speaking and working class communities of Santa Ana, you and others decimated their market and viability. This cycle shouldn't be difficult to understand.

      The Chases benefited from government assistance for decades and yet their vision doesn’t include serving the vast majority of this city. Instead, they bring in folks like you from Irvine and other South County cities to operate businesses and be their customers. I just don’t understand this logic when this City has done so much for them in the form of loans, facade improvements and other government assistance.

      While I don’t think it’s fair to put all of the onus on you or the Chases, others in the City, including our city council, have been silent. I'm not sure from where this reluctance stems. Others more in the know than me likley know.

      Despite all that, how do you propose to select these new incubator businesses? Will you give any regard to folks that have lived and worked in Santa Ana? How does the fictional woman you mentioned that sells tamales make the move to the Fourth Street Market? How does the paletero benefit? I only mention this because you mentioned it.

      • Dari, you misunderstand me if you think I am being paternalistic. I may be naive about the realities of growing up in a working class family in Santa Ana, but I'm trying to be honest about both my intentions and my weaknesses. I can assure you that you also completely misunderstand the Chases, but I'll leave their defense to another day. I also think your analysis of the cycle of decline and rebirth on Fourth Street is overly simplistic. It is complex, but at the core of it is the fact that the Mexican consumer abandoned Fourth Street. With a few exceptions, the small business owners there no longer make enough money to remain in business. Things have changed and that sucks for those of you like La Pocha who remember and long for the glory days of Calle Quatro, so things have to change. You and I have some control over how they change, so I hope we'll work together to accommodate everyone.

        You are also using judgment loaded words, such as "eradicating" and "decimated," which are obvious exaggerations and weaken your arguments. Putting that aside, I want to answer your important questions about the incubator businesses:

        1. We have 11 Health Department certified incubator kitchens (2 are gluten free, 1 is confection and the other 8 are unlimited in their use). Anyone can rent these by the hour. We believe there is enough capacity for everyone who wants them. If the tamale lady is in need of financial assistance, the already low hourly rental rate will be discounted to help her get started. If she only speaks Spanish, that won't be a problem. No one will ask her to document her immigration status.

        2. If she wants to sell her tamales in the General Store in the 4th Street Market, she may do so. She will have to rent a small amount of shelf or refrigerator display space, which she can keep stocked with her tamales. Customers of the General Store can buy anything in the store (likely from several artisans, including tamale lady) and pay for them at a single check-out experience like at Northgate Market. Tamale lady doesn't have to deal with customers, establish credit card merchant accounts or worry about collections. Her customers will pay the store when they check out and the store will pass the proceeds on to tamale lady.

        She can also sell some or all of her tamales in any other way she can imagine: her own food cart or food truck or maybe she can sell them to restaurants. Only her imagination limits the possibilities.

        3. If there is sufficient demand for her tamales, she may want to open a restaurant. As you can imagine that is very expensive and very difficult. But it is incredibly affordable to open a mini-restaurant in the 4th Street Market. The Chases have provided all of the basic equipment, a Health Department certified kitchen and almost everything a restaurant needs to operate. So for very little upfront cost and a rental rate that is similar to the cost of renting a food truck, tamale lady can open her own (first) restaurant.

        4. There is a support structure at the 4th Street Market to help her work her way through all of this. And if she has questions I might be able to answer, I would love to share anything I know that she might find useful.

• "The 4th Street Market may be the best thing that ever happened to the members of your audience."

  "How is this not the best thing ever for the ambitious local artisans?"

  "I think the 4th Street Market is one of the greatest things to happen in Santa Ana in my memory."

  You have every right to sell the incubator and word whatever sales pitch however you wish. You may genuinely believe that this endeavor is one of the best things to happen in Santa Ana, and that's fine. It's only the downtown, but that's fine. Where the city needs help in the form of redevelopment and new businesses, incubators etc is in other parts like in Wards 4 and 5, where you see empty lots, closed down businesses and what not.

  Let me explain myself, my point, to you, in case you aren't familiar with my writings and opinions. I have always argued for empowering the Latino community through business ownership, and most ideally, through owning commercial real estate. Maybe this is why you don't understand my comment. Maybe you don't equate, nor envision, more Latinos owning commercial real estate and maybe that's hard to process, fair enough.

  To your last points, never mind that Chase or x, y, or z owner or group owns whatever building or number of buildings. I'm giving the example here in the downtown to magnify the disproportionate number of Latinos owning commercial estate, in general. It is also, in fact, incorrect to assume that I don't want progress. You would know this if you were familiar with my opinions. Refer to Santaniego.com if you must. I've always argued that the local people must be included in the envisioning or processes of improvement, in this case, the downtown. But you've just admitted that, "A successful downtown must bring them back." Where we differ is in the methods used to achieve an end. Forget that this is just a downtown issue. It's broader than that, in that Latinos (let's not sugarcoat it, we'll say Mexicans) generally don't own commercial real estate. This is true beyond Santa Ana, but especially true in Santa Ana, throughout.

  "Help me make the downtown a safe and inviting place for everyone."

  Mr. Quinn, you must direct that comment at your co-promoters in the downtown at places like the former Crosby and Proof that have seen a pattern of newly-arrived, non-Hispanic youths causing trouble, insulting the locals with racist comments and more. Maybe if we were in 1990 or 95 and there was gang banging occurring where the Chiarini fountain now stands (as was described to me by Santora tenants there in the 90s) would you have a point. But you insinuate at a commonly and deeply-held belief that Santa Ana isn't safe to begin with, that the locals are the problem. The downtown was asleep at night, quiet, in the few years prior to the bar boom. I know because walked the area back then, where Mariscos Tampico used to be, and all of the downtown. When Neutral Grounds was here. Before Original Mike's. When I wanted nightlife I had to go to Fullerton or other parts. So I don't know where you get that Santa Ana wasn't, or isn't, safe prior to your or other arrivals. But it recently became extremely dangerous, albeit briefly, after the incident at the Crosby. Luckily, I don't sense any tension now, to the point that things can get violent. Let that incident teach all sides to behave.

  • Get a life. The anti anything not to your liking is so tiring. We have moved on. So should you. It's people like Bob who make things happen, not someone sitting back and giving everything that is not Latino the big, 'thumbs down'. As you can see/read, Downtown Santa Ana continues to move forward in a positive direction. You sure to like to make contact with the new restaurant owners so play your music at their establishment. Kind of two-faced. Did you feel safe the night you played Downtown on Broadway just across the street from the Santora?

    • I'm glad whoever you are brought that up because I've been approached or invited to perform at whatever venue only to not have them pay. The gypsy den used to pay under different ownership... So "the downtown is moving in a positive direction" you say? Ha! You want entertainment? Pay for it! You want something to promote? Pay for it! What business doesn't pay for advertising? I don't know why whoever you are take things out of context. Safety? You conveniently overlooked the part where I said that things got dangerous, albeit briefly. All the while failing to accept the fact there has been trouble caused by newcomers in the past. But this will never be admitted by a group of would-be infallible, self-righteous downtown promoters that refuse to admit when they're wrong.

      • Don't overgeneralize. We often have live entertainment at Playground and we always pay. I would imagine most venues do. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience.

        • Not to generalize. I know some venues pay. On a related note, I proposed having the recently formed Santa Ana Arts Commission steer a project, or help institute a policy, requiring restaurants / venues to have a rotation of performers, for variety's sake, and to pay for these entertainment services, to protect performing artists. Maybe you and others can help me with that. But I can see how some business owners might see this as government overstepping. And right from the get go, hopefully this won't require contracting with the Musicians Association Local No. 7, but if that's the only avenue, then we do what we must.

      • Omar, please. The Santa Ana Arts Council is a joke. Have you been to one of the meetings? The meetings do far have been painfully childish. Waste of time.

        • Haven't been to any... I have already had a bad experience with that whole thing... I helped to engineer that council, in thought, but it hasn't turned out to be so impressive. Already there have been some petty politics in the city council's selection process. And I haven't seen too many ideas come from that arts council, but they (mostly one person who is the most proactive and visible, actually doing something, whereas the rest are MIA) do ask for people to give them ideas. I think I'm done with that. But yeah, it seems that the city council isn't serious about the arts commission and that it was propped up to appease some outspoken artists. I'd like to see a concert hall in the downtown, comparable to the Barclay in Irvine, but Roman Reyna wants a bunch of children's murals to go up around town--and to be erased soon enough--because he's so for the children and quote, has to put them first before any artists. I don't think a guy like Reyna can wrap his head around the complexity behind a mural like say, America Tropical, painted in downtown LA by David Alfaro Siqueiros in 1932. I tried to have this discussion with him (pointless)...

  • Omar, I'll take a look at your website. I am not familiar with it.

    The issue of Latino ownership of commercial ownership is a good one, but the answer seems illusive. I confess to being a white male in America and have never experienced any kind of racial prejudice, but I don't see why anyone with money or credit could not purchase commercial real estate. I don't see where the Chases or anyone like them is creating a situation that is inhibiting Latino ownership of commercial real estate. I am unaware of social forces that make it more difficult for a Mexican to purchase real estate than for me. I grew up fairly poor in Garden Grove. I worked hard in school, went to college and then to law school. I bought my first house with the help of money borrowed from a relative. I paid my bills and earned a reputation for being a good credit risk and was able to move to a bigger house. I saved what I could. I invested a majority of that in the Playground. Now I'm cash poor again, but I have a business I love.

    Am I so different from the Latinos you're talking about? Why can't they follow a similar path? Is there a social inequity I am too jaded to understand?

    Your comment about safety is a good one and may expose my prejudices. I never said that I thought the problem is locals, but I and many of my friends who thought I was crazy to open a restaurant in DTSA held the belief that we could be killed by gangbangers if we wandered the streets at night. I remember taking some Newport Beach friends to Art Walk in 2011 and then driving by my new restaurant. Fiesta Marketplace was dark and we all instinctively locked our doors. Stupid white people with overgrown fear perhaps. I'll own it if that's what it was, but it wasn't just me and it still exists, although to a much lesser extent. I apologize if I misjudged the situation.

    • Yes, the answer is illusive, it's a gargantuan task to get this mass of people to adopt these business practices. Many people need all the financial education they can get, and then some stimulating thought, encouragement, a challenge, whatever to get them to change their mindset, to join the merchant class, and beyond. It's easy for me to say these things, but I never tire of at least trying to motivate people towards this ideal.

      • Correction to my comment: Not illusive but elusive.

      • I think you are absolutely right and I wish there were more voices like yours. Why don't you help me help them get a start in the 4th Street Market incubator?

        • My motivation is picking up the more troubled parts of town. Ward 5 especially. However I am a coffee drinker and won't be able to resist trying Portola. If I like it, or their café de olla, I might even recommend it. That gets people in the door then... Who knows.

• Is it just me or do y'all get sad when folks describe your hometown as a crime-infested, dirty and culture-less backwater until folks came in from Irvine and South County to save it? That's pretty much the commentary I hear whenever people try to justify current business practices/displacements on Santa Ana's 4th Street. Did I grow up in a parallel reality? The place I knew had Artists, Movie Stars, Music Icons, Families and was a very Friendly historic community. We must balance all these legacies.

  What I take issue with is the dehumanizing demonization of histories. To say that everything was shitty & dangerous until the "New Vision" came in is just as bad as saying everything was gorgeous & perfect until the "Gentrifyers" destroyed it.

  I grew up on Calle Cuatro -- literally. I rode my bike thru downtown daily, took pictures and learned to draw & film my first super-8 movies there, not to mention the chingos of time I spent in all the bars watching my dad & older brother carve their legends as pool hall champions. My bro Rigo actually built upon his Santa Ana training to compete nationally and place #2 in the US for Billiards!

  I was raised on stories of my dad's Santa Ana Boxing Club days, the characters from Broadway Billiards (now the Copper Door) filled my sketchbook, i had violin recitals at Louie Olivos' Yost Theater and ate next door, at my nino's Juan's Cafe. International superstar Juan Gabriel used to play at my uncle's El Festival De Las Artes and my mom would gush with stories of how she met her teen heartthrob, Leo Dan there.

  I remember how crushed I felt that no local artists were included in the initial design of Fiesta Marketplace, so it never lived up to its "Olvera Street in Santa Ana" promise. Fiesta Marketplace was many things -- an old folks hangout, uninspired designwise and sometimes boring -- but never dangerous. Millions of Federal dollars were invested in Fiesta Marketplace to build a Mexican-theme retail destination but, for many reasons, it never achieved the vision sold on paper. Now it seems that folks are just ditching that vision altogether. I don't think that's what the government had in mind when they initially funded the project. The Fed doesn't sink that kind of tax payer money into a development where the people running it don't meaningfully try to make it succeed, then just wait out the 30 year easement in order to flip it into a whole new branding.

  Let's also recall that even with everything it had going against it, a Mexicanized 4th Street still raked in MORE money than South Coast Plaza throughout the '80's & '90's. One can argue that Latin buying habits changed once Walmart came in, but let's be real here, it's more likely that actions like closing down a vibrant Latin cultural center (the old Yost), putting in parking meters, tearing out family hubs (like the old Faisan, carrousel & kiosko) and then financing a booster organization that many found was hostile to the Latino community is what really worked to drive the "plebes" from downtown Santa Ana's shopping districts.

  So why build this whole BS about Sucky Santa Ana vs the Glorious Golden Days? Let's stop using the past mythologies to justify divisive business practices.

  Is LA's Olvera Street -- Placita Olvera & Plaza de Cultura y Artes -- anti diversity? Hell no! It's a tightly controlled manufactured Old Californio environment (much like Disneyland) that is a huge regional icon.

  Do Old Town San Diego or Spanish Village in Balboa Park draw their sense of value by how they compete with Walmart or Target? Hell no! These spaces, altho Latin-theme enclaves, are vibrant tourist destinations for multi-cultural audiences from all over the world.

  ** You don't have to erase or put down Santa Ana's ethnic heritage to make an area commercially vibrant. **

  I hope we can all draw from our diverse histories and work together with all communities, local peeps and new businesses to organically grow City of Santa Ana into the best place it can be.

  • And we all know these hiphop shoe stores ain't making more money than the paisano western wear. But hey, its the new urban thing.

    • "And we all know these hiphop shoe stores ain’t making more money than the paisano western wear. But hey, its the new urban thing."

      They may or may not make more money as you put it than the paisano western wear. However, they do attract the patron to the nearby restaurants who does make more money.

  • "Let’s also recall that even with everything it had going against it, a Mexicanized 4th Street still raked in MORE money than South Coast Plaza throughout the ’80′s & ’90′s."

    You were miss informed if someone told you that 4th street at anytime raked in more money than South Coast. South Coast has been one of the top grossing retail center in the country going back will into the 80's. It has been the number one grossing retail center since the mid-90s and the first center to reach over a billion dollars in retail sales.

  • Thanks for a better perspective on the history of the area. I can see why you and so many others long for its return. I understand and respect your passion. But, honestly, do you think the place of your memories existed in 2011 when we arrived in the neighborhood? Or had it already begun its death throes?

    I'm a relative new-comer, so I am ignorant of much of the neighborhood's history. But I have engaged my Fourth Street neighbors and have heard their stories of the glory days and the difficulties of today's reality. In 2011 when we were looking for a home for our restaurant idea, Mariscos Tampico was on the corner of Fourth and Spurgeon, where Playground now sits. Mariscos Tampico had 2 employees and was way behind on its rent. It could no longer survive. The Mexican consumers had left the neighborhood. Next door to Mariscos Tampico was an empty storefront that I believe had once been a shoe store. This is now Playground 2.0. We currently employ 45 people. I don't understand an argument that says we, i.e., the "gentrifiers," are causing a decline in the neighborhood. Wasn't it already in decline when we arrived? Aren't things better now that people all over the county are thinking of Santa Ana as "Downtown Orange County." (To be clear, we're not taking credit for this, but we've been part of the transition.) How can anyone argue that replaceing a failing business (Mariscos Tampico) and an empty storefront with an employer of 45 people is not a good thing for a community?

    I don't believe anyone is trying to "erase" Santa Ana's ethnic heritage. I do believe we have to make it more inclusive and not exclusively Mexican in order to move it forward as it had become unsustainable as it was. It is simply a matter of evolution. It seems to me the question is whether we all adapt (to stay with the evolution metaphor) to a more pluralistic community or whether, as you put it, the part of Santa Ana's ethnic heritage that is Mexican is erased by stubbornly trying to hold on to the past.

    It is my hope and goal that we find a way to embrace our Mexican roots in the 4th Street Market, thereby creating a true "People's Market" for all residents of Santa Ana. If you've got ideas how I might be able to do that, feel free to contact me at Bob@PlaygroundDTSA.com.

• Mr. Quinn,

  You make it seem so nice and easy, neat and clean. Why don't you explain the differences in the rent charged by the Chases? He tries to gauge the businesses that serve the Latino/immigrant community and offers sweetheart deals to folks like you. How much are you going to pay for rent on the space currently owned by the taqueria to the west of the Playground? How much was he planning on charging the current tenant when his lease is up?

  You and I both know Irv and Ryan are giving the gentrifiers the hipster hook up on the rent. They ran the businesses that catered to the Latinos and working class out of the area by raising their rents. Your portrayal of them is laughable to those of us that know the truth.

  You also failed to mentioned all the government aid the got to buy up downtown. They used minorities to get loan assistance. Now that the loan stipulations about having minority businesses as tenants are no longer in place, they sent them packing in favor of a more Eurocentric crowd such as yourself.

  Lets not forget about the sweetheart deals Dave Ream kept sending their way and of course the giveaways courtesy of Cindy Nelson. Stop with the tall tails of altruism by the Chases. They are slime and if there is justice they will get what they truly deserve.

  Stop acting like you and those like you are saviors of the downtown. You are outsiders that offer nothing to most people in Santa Ana. We don't want your arrogance in our city. That's not to say that people are against you being here, we are just sick of you and those like you thinking you know what's best for us. Come to our city and try to fit it, don't come to our city a force your bullshit and lies on us.

  You are a guest here, start acting like it. Show some respect for the residents, not just the white residents.

• Squanto, you could not be more wrong about the rents. I'm getting a good deal relative to, say, Irvine, but if I can believe what I hear from my neighbors, I'm paying five times more than some of the Latino businesses pay. 500% more. Maybe the rents have been raised since I obtained that information, I honestly don't know. But you clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Chases are completely color blind when it comes to tenants. They aren't my stories to tell, but if you really knew what was going on, you'd be ashamed of your slanderous comments.

  You mention a bunch of history that I don't know and people I've never heard of, so I won't respond to those comments.

  But where do you get off telling me how to act? Do you know me? I never claimed to be a savior, or to know what's best for you, whoever you are. And if you knew me, I doubt you'd call me arrogant; I'm just a guy trying as hard as I can. And if you think I don't respect all of our residents you're uninformed. Ask my neighbors and my fellow business owners how I treat them. Come talk to my employees. Then tell me one other restaurant in this city that pays its untipped employees significantly more than minimum wage, offers them a 401(k) plan and medical benefits? Would the arrogant, disrespectful guy you seem to think I am do that?

  I take great offense at your closing paragraph. Where do you get off thinking this is your city? Who are you? And why don't I fit in? I'm sick of people like you who think you have the exclusive right to call this place yours. I am not a guest. This is my city too and I'm taking responsibility for my role in making it a great place to live and work. What are you doing other than hating me, and people like me? How are you helping our city?